Talk:1984 New York City Subway shooting

Transcript of civil trial - Restore Goetz's shooting descriptions to article

I got the section of the Bronx trial shooting testimony! 28 pages. This is the plain text conversion of the pdf. The original pdf has some special version of the court reporters seal, but here it just shows up as some kind of odd tiff. I can forward the original pdf with the electronic seal to anyone who requests it here. Sections from this can/should be added to the article. This verifies the CABEY SHOT ON THE FORTH SHOT description with Goetz's website shooting description that Jerome Frank Disciple removed. The CABEY SHOT ON THE FORTH SHOT section should be restored. The present article has DOZENS of riffraff opinions and statements about the shooting, but LITTLE of Goetz's statements describing the shooting other than statements he made Dec 31, 1984 in NH, which he later retracted.

For GOETZ shooting testimony (Bronx trial) click on EXTENDED CONTENT:

Extended content

CATHERINE CALLAHAN <nycourts.gov> Tue, Jun 13 at 11:18 AM B. Goetz - Plaintiff - Direct SUPREME COURT OF THE STATE OF NEW YORK COUNTY OF BRONX: TRIAL TERM PART 7 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - X DARRELL CABEY, Plaintiff, Excerpt of testimony - against - of Bernhard Goetz BERNHARD GOETZ, Defendant. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - X April 12, 1996 851 Grand Concourse Bronx, New York 10451 B E F O R E: BARRY SALMAN, Justice, and a jury of six plus two alternates. A P P E A R A N C E S RONALD KUBY, ESQ Attorney for Plaintiff DARNAY HOFFMAN, ESQ. Attorney for Defendant Catherine Callahan, RPR Senior Court Reporter B. Goetz - Plaintiff - Direct Q Did you then tell Officer Foote, the Negro male again asked Mr. Goetz, give me five dollars? A Yes. Q At this time, Mr. Goetz stated that he pulled out the revolver that he had in his waistband slash belt? A Yes. Q And did you further tell Officer Foote that you fired at the first subject who was wearing a fur type jacket at center body? A Well, that's misinformation, but I did tell him that. Q And did you tell him that you then fired at the second subject in the same fashion as you had planned to do? A That's correct. Q And did you then tell him that you turned to your right then shooting the third subject and then the fourth subject? A Yes, that could be confusing. That would be the third. Q Excuse me, Mr. Goetz. That's what you told him; correct? A That's what I told him. Q Did you then tell him that after firing the four shots you went to check the first two subjects who are now lying on the floor of the subway car? A I don't believe I told him that. I think one was on the seat and one was on the floor. One was lying, I seem to remember, belly down on one of the seats. Q So, you were not -- so it's your testimony -- A I may have told him exactly this. Q You may have told him exactly what's written on the page; is that correct? A Yes, this is incorrect, but this is what I may have told him. Q Is it fair to say that then you told him after you were checking to see if they were taken care of; is that correct? A Yes. Q And when you used the phrase "taken care of," you didn't mean -- you didn't mean, sorry, receiving medical assistance; did you? A No, I meant seriously injured. Q Seriously injured? A Yes. Q After making sure that they were taken care of, you went to the second two subjects, one being on the floor? A Correct. Q And did you also say the other, the fourth being shot, being halfway sitting, half lying on the bench where he was originally? A Yeah, he was in the slightly different position but that -- the person in that fourth position, yes. Q And then did you tell Officer Foote that you didn't see any blood on that subject? A He didn't appear to be seriously injured. Q Did you tell Officer Foote that you did not see any blood on the subject? A In response to -- in response to a question from him, probably, yes. Q And did you tell Officer Foote at that time, you told the subject, you don't look too bad, here's another one, and you shot the subject a second time? A Those were the words in my mind and I tried to shoot him again. Q Did you tell Officer Foote at that time, you told the subject you don't look too bad, here's another, and you shot the fourth subject a time second? Is that what you told him? A I told him words very close to what you just said, yes. Q Did you then say to Officer Foote that the news media and newspapers stated you fired only four times, four shots and that they were -- in fact, they were wrong and you fired five? A Well, I was -- I was -- I didn't think about the shots that I missed. I was given misinformation so I told him I fired five shots. Q Excuse me. Did you tell Officer Foote that the news media and newspapers stated you had only fired four shots and that they were wrong, you had fired five? A Correct. Q And did you then tell Officer Foote the four subjects you fired at twice? A That's correct. Q And on the next page, Mr. Goetz, page five, first full paragraph -- A Yes, is it. Q Is it fair to say several times you told Officer Foote that you didn't feel that what you had done was wrong? A Probably. MR. KUBY: If I can get this marked as Plaintiff's Exhibit 106 for identification. (Whereupon, the item referred to is marked Plaintiff's Exhibit 106 for identification.) Q Mr. Goetz, the four subjects that you told Officer Foote you fired at twice, that was Darrell Cabey; is that correct? A I believe so. Q I would like to show you what we have marked as Plaintiff's Exhibit 106 for identification. Without showing it to the jury, I would ask you to take a look at it please? A Yes. Q Do you recognize what that is? A Yes. Q And is that your signature, a reproduction of your signature at the bottom? A Yes. Q Is it fair to say this is a blow-up, a true and accurate blow-up of a sketch that you did for Officer Foote? A Yes. MR. KUBY: I would offer it into evidence. MR. HOFFMAN: No objection, Your Honor. THE COURT: Please mark it number 106 in evidence without objection. (Whereupon, the item referred to, previously marked People's 106 for Identification, was received and marked People's 106 in Evidence.) Q Now, Mr. Goetz, I am going to ask you if you can stand off the witness stand. We are going to put this up on the easel and I am going to ask you some questions about it. Mr. Goetz, this is a depiction of the subway car that you were riding? A No, this is a simple block diagram. This -- if you are going to use this as a model -- Q Excuse me. A It's a poor representation. Q Excuse me. THE COURT: Mr. Goetz, please just turn -- any member of the jury cannot see or hear? A Can we project it back a little more so everything can see and I can see. Q Officer Foote asked you to draw a diagram of the subway car showing approximately where people were situated; is that correct? A Yes. Q And this is the diagram you produced in response to that; is that correct? A Yes. Q Where it says enters, what does that indicate? A That's where I entered the subway car. The train is heading -- okay, this is -- yes, the train is heading south. North would be in this direction. The train is heading this way. I entered this door. Q And this was the number seven car on the number two train headed southbound? A Correct. Q And you boarded that car at 14th Street? A Correct. Q And you headed down to Chambers? A That's correct. Q When you walked in, you took a seat where the "X" is; is that correct? A My hand -- I can just touch the armrest. I was about three feet to the left of the armrest. Q When you drew this sketch, the "X" here was intended to indicate where you sat? A Yes, that's correct. Three feet to the left of this armrest. Q With respect to the "W" here, that's -- A Yes. Q Withdrawn. With respect to the "W", that was described to depict a place where a woman was sitting; is that correct? A Yes, I think so. Q With respect to number -- A That was one of the woman I talked to. Q With respect to number -- one of the women that you talked to? A Yes. Q This was after the shooting? A Correct. Q And you had thought that perhaps you might have hurt her or shot her? A That's correct. Q And this was the woman that you went to see if she was okay and she said to you -- THE COURT: Objection sustained. A Pardon. THE COURT: Sustained. A Oh, it's -- Q This was the woman you told, don't worry about them, they're assholes; is that correct? A No, that's not the woman I told that to. Q That was another woman? A That's correct. Q With respect to number 1, that indicates the position that Troy Canty was in; is that correct? A Well, yes. Q Thank you, Mr. Goetz. A This is not an accurate depiction of a subway car. This is a crude block diagram. Let me explain. Here are -- MR. KUBY: Excuse me, Judge. A He is asking for positions. I am trying to be more precise, Judge. THE COURT: Mr. Goetz, the question put forth to you related to the document you stated was a diagram you drew. I think we all can see that it's not a sketch in reference to the footage and the exactness. THE WITNESS: Okay, thank you, Judge. THE COURT: With that understanding, let's proceed. Q Number 1 indicates the place where the first Negro subject, Troy Canty was standing when you walked in; is that correct? A No, he was lying down there with a -- one of his feet between the armrest. His body was on the seat lying on the seat on his back. Q This other fellow who you actually described to Officer Foote as sitting, but, in fact, you now recollect he was lying; is that correct? A That statement says he was sitting. I thought I was always consistent in saying he is lying on his back with his foot in between the armrest. Q Position number 2, the second Negro subject, do you know the name of that individual? A I believe that that is Barry Allen. Q And position number 3, the third Negro subject, do you know the name of that individual? A Well, at the time I came in the car I believe 2 was sitting in the seat here at the instant I came in the car. Q Excuse me, Mr. Goetz. With respect to the circle that you have drawn for position number 3, do you know the name of that individual? A No, I do not know. Can I ask you for a clarification? Q No. THE COURT: Excuse me. Mr. Goetz, if you do not understand the question, just say you do not understand the understand it. Mr. Kuby will rephrase. A May I ask for you to ask the question just to -- THE COURT: Sir, if you do not understand the question, just say so and Mr. Kuby will rephrase it. A At the instant I entered the cab, is that your question? Q With respect to position number 4, subject number 4, that was designed to depict Darrell Cabey, where Darrell Cabey was sitting, subject number 4; is that correct? A Probably. Q You may resume the stand, Mr. Goetz. I am sorry. I am sorry. I apologize. These two arrows, these arrows are designed to indicate the approximate positions where Negro subject 1 and Negro subject 2 walked towards you; is that correct, on the subway car? A Yes. Q When you said on the videotape that they were surrounding you, they moved more to your left, this is what you meant; is that correct? A That's correct. Q Mr. Goetz, is it fair to say within thirty seconds of your getting on that train you were shooting? A I think that's a good estimate, yes. Q And is it fair to say that when the first two subjects walked over, Darrell Cabey didn't change position? A No, that's not correct. Q Well, is it fair to say that Mr. Cabey was paying attention to you but only in a quite casual way? A That's not necessarily correct, no. Q Did you say on videotape on December 31, 1994, that Mr. Cabey was paying attention to you but only in a quiet casual way? A One of the two on my left was much more casual than the subject to my left-- one of the two on my right was much more casual than the other one on my right. I don't know if that was Darrell Cabey or not. Q Mr. Goetz, isn't it a fact that with respect to both of these young men on your right, you said they were paying attention to me, I believe, but only in a quite casual way? Did you say that? A When I was facing the other two on my left, yes. Q Now Mr. Goetz, you said -- you said either here on the stand or your videotape that one of the fellows on your right had his hand in his pocket with a bulge? A That's correct. Q And is it fair to say that you did not believe that to be a threat? A I did not take that as a serious threat. Q Is it fair to say that, quote, I know it's bullshit and I am going to repeat it, the reason I know it's bullshit, these guys are smart to carry guns; is that what you said? A Yes, I did. Q Is it also fair to say that at one point the detective asked you, so you knew he had no weapon, and you answered, he had some bulge in his pocket, like that was nothing, that was nothing? A Yes, he was pretending he had something. I thought that was a bluff. Q You said there was nothing, that was nothing; is that correct? A Yes, words to that effect. Q And you said the bulge was in his pocket, in his pocket, that's not a threat to me? A I did not consider that a significant threat. Q What did you -- what you said was, the bulge was in his pocket, that's not a threat to me. That's what you said on videotape? A Yes, I said that, or words to that effect. Q Now at the moment you had this conversation with Troy Canty, the "give me five dollars," what did you say, and he repeated it? Did anybody raise their hand to you? A No. Q Did anybody raise a fist to you? A No. Q You didn't see a weapon displayed by anybody; did you? A No. Q And the statement, "Give me five dollars," that wasn't a threat either; was it? A Only in the context of it -- of the whole situation. Q Well, you said in an audiotape you, did you not, give me five dollars. Oh, yeah, yeah, sure. And you see that in itself, none of these things bother me. A That in itself is -- was not threatening, but in the context of the whole situation, that could be considered a threat. Q Now, Mr. Goetz, at that moment you knew, did you not, that you could simply have pulled the gun and shown the gun and it would have scared Mr. Canty and anyone else away, isn't that right; you knew that; didn't you? A No, I did not. Q Well, is it fair to say that when you were talking to Detective Clark on videotape, you said, the threat, when I was surrounded at that point, pulling the gun would have been enough, but when I saw this one fellow and when I saw the glean in his eyes and the smile on his face -- is that what you said on December 31, 1994? A I may have said that. Q And is it also fair to say that you were gone on pulling the gun, but I wasn't gone on killing him, and that is what -- that is what I wound up trying to do. But I had no intention of killing them at that time. Give me five dollars. Five dollars to me is bullshit. This is just a technicality. They're trying to beat us so they don't be accused of an armed robbery. It was -- his eyes were shining. He had a smile on his face. When I saw the smile on his face and the shine in his eyes, that he was enjoying this, I knew what they were going to do. Is that what you said? A Yes. Q And is it also fair to say that at that point you decided you were going to, quote, kill them all, murder them all, do anything? A I snapped. Q You said you snapped. Does that mean you lost control? A Control is a funny -- is not a precise word. Yes, I think it would be a good way of describing it. I would say at that point I was out of control. Q Mr. Goetz, you remember a deposition in this case back in 1990? A Yes. Q Page 61 -- THE COURT: Mr. Kuby, I would like to explain to the jury what a deposition is. Members of the Jury, during the course of a proceeding there are various methods by which information is gathered, and that is prior to the actual trial. One of those methods in a civil proceeding is something that we call an Examination Before Trial or a deposition. Very quickly, the proceedings relate to a request made by one side or the other to ask questions under oath of either a party or someone who is related to the claim or a witness or anyone who could give information pertinent to the claims being made. A party or a person appears in an office, whether it be the lawyer's office, and sometimes we use this building, they are placed under oath, they are asked questions under oath. Their attorney is present. There is an attorney for the other side. The proceeding is taken down similar to what's being done by our court -- well, there is an outside reporter, who then transcribes it. And it is transcribed into a type of booklet which I am showing you now. The booklet usually has an original and two copies. The original and a copy are then sent from the attorney who requested it to the other side. They have an opportunity to read it over. If there are any changes, there is a procedure under our law to make such changes, and then the document is sworn to before a Notary Public so that it becomes the sworn testimony of the individual who has been asked questions. The original and a copy are usually returned to the party who requested it and a copy is kept by the person who was the person asked the questions. This way they have an exact duplicate of everything that has been transcribed. What is the purpose of the document? As I mentioned, it is sworn to under oath and, therefore, as it relates to a party to a proceeding, Mr. Goetz is a party. You may consider this as it's related to by Counsel or read into the record as part of the case. There may be questions relating to whether there were consistencies or inconsistencies based on what he is testifying to now in court and what he said on this date in question. Counsel has stated that he is going to allude to the document so that there is no misunderstanding. This document took place -- or the E.B.T. took place on September 24, 1990, at 10:00 A.M. in this building. I also want to state so that there is no misunderstanding that pursuant to a Court Order of myself, I ordered a judicial hearing officer to preside both at the E.B.T. of Mr. Goetz and the subsequent E.B.T. of Mr. Cabey. So, I want to tell you that in addition to the fact that under normal circumstances you just have the attorneys, in this particular case you had judicial hearing officer presiding over these proceedings. Sir, you may proceed. Q Thank you. Mr. Goetz, you remember all that? A Yes. Q And do you remember being asked this question and giving this answer: THE COURT: Page and line. Q Page 61: "QUESTION: Mr. Goetz, with respect to the time that you snapped, does that mean you lost control in what you were doing, that you did not know what you were doing? "ANSWER: No, I wouldn't characterize it that way at all. "QUESTION: In fact, you knew exactly what you were doing when you shot those four young men; is that right? "ANSWER: That is correct, while I was doing it, yes." Do you remember those questions and those answers? A Yes. Q Mr. Goetz, did you state on December 31, 1984, when I saw the look on his face, I made the decision. Those guys, if I had more, I would have used more, and I attempted to take them all out. You have to answer. A Yeah. Yes, I said that. Q And is it also fair to say that in the audiotape you said, when I saw him smiling I laid down my pattern of fire? A Yes. Q Mr. Goetz, it's true, is it not that when you started firing your intention was to kill them? A You have a flood of emotions. I had a number of intentions. Q Did you state on videotape that when you started firing your intention was to kill them? A Yes. Q Did you state on videotape that your intention was to quote, murder them, closed quote? A Yes. Q Did you say on the videotape that your intention was to make them suffer as much as possible? A Yes. Q And it's fair to say that you were being vicious; is that right? A Yes. Q And it's fair to say that you were trying to do anything that you could to hurt them; is that right? A I was trying to get as many as I could. Q On the videotape yesterday and also here you used the term "pattern of fire." A Yes. Q Could you please explain that? A If there are two on your left and two on your right it seemed the obvious thing to do is to shoot as quickly as possible. It's to shoot people in one continuous direction, in one continuous sweep. So my pattern of fire in general was going to be from left to right. Q Shooting one, two, three, four? A Well, that's what I had thought would have been correct. In fact, it was not. Q Thank you. Clockwise; left to right? A Yes. Q Now after you fired the first shot — A Yes. Q -- you, quote, got rid of number one, closed quote? A That's correct. Q Do you remember saying that on video? A No, but I would have said it. Q You would have said that it sounds like? A Yes. Q Did you stop at that point to see what was going on? A No, no. As a matter of fact, I was in the process of pulling the trigger immediately after shooting the first person. Q Then you fired and you got rid of number two; is that correct? A That's correct. Q Is it true on videotape you said, they say I shot him in the back. It doesn't matter. I wasn't even aiming. I wasn't aiming for their backs? A That's correct. Q And after you quote, got rid of number two, closed quote, did you stop at that point to see whether you were in any danger? A No, I started to pull the trigger and started to turn around. Q Is it fair to say that in your view once you made the decision to kill, the time to think about what you were doing is over? A Yes, that's correct. Q And you made the decision to kill when you saw Troy Canty's shiny eyes; is that correct? A And the smile on his face. Q And the smile on his face. And from that point on, your time of thought was finished; is that right, in the course of shooting? A Not time of thought, but in terms of my reaction what -- in terms of a higher level of thought, in terms of what I had decided to do, yes. Q It's fair to say once you made the decision to kill you just go with that decision? A Yes. Q And you told that to -- you said that as recently as December of last year; is that right? A Probably, yes. Q Now there was one fellow who stopped where he was and wouldn't even look at you; is that correct? A No, I wouldn't say that. The only person who-- once the shooting started you really don't notice their faces. Q Excuse me. You say you wouldn't say that? Do you mean to say you didn't say that? A No, there was -- I'm not saying I didn't say that. I wouldn't say that. That would be -- that is not a precise way of describing it. Q You wouldn't say that now; is that correct? A That's -- well, I really don't know what they were doing on my right while I was shooting on my left. Q Mr. Goetz, did you say on audiotape, one of them tried -- was pretending he wasn't with them and he just -- he just kind of stopped where he was, he wouldn't even look -- he wouldn't look at me. He kind of stood up, and I think he held his hand or something? A Yes. Q Do you remember continuing to say, I don't remember clearly. He stood up and he held his -- he reached up and he held his hand on the railing or the arm -- excuse me -- the hand strap; is that correct? A Yes. Q And you went on to say, I guess it was his reaction to fear; is that correct? A Probably, yes. Q And then you said, it doesn't -- it doesn't matter. I mean, how -- who needs the intention. Your speed is everything. Is that right? A Yes. Q And there was another person who you described, did you not, as trying to run through the wall of the train but he had, you know, he had nowhere to go. He had nowhere to go. A Yes, yes, there was a blur, a flailing of arms. I think now he was trying to get out of the door, but I'm not sure. Q And you let him have it too; didn't you? A Owe yes. Q The fellow who was trying to get off the train, that fellow you believe to be James Ramseur; is that correct? A I believe so. Q And the other fellow, the one who was standing there holding the hand strap pretending not to be involved, wouldn't even look at you, that was Darrell Cabey? A I believe so, yes. Q And is it fair to say that you found that reaction quote, so amusing, closed quote? A Well, again, I used words like funny and amusing rather than -- rather loosely. Q Well, did you use it in the context of Mr.-- did you use it in the context of Mr. Cabey's reaction? A I would consider that reaction interesting. Amusing would be a poor choice of words. Q Did you use the word "amusing"? A Yes, I did. If that's what the sheet says. Q Now, after you shot at Mr. Cabey, is it fair to say you went back to the other two to check them? A That's correct. Q Pardon me. A That's correct. Q And you, at that point, put the gun back in your waistband; is that right? A No, I didn't. Q Did you say that you put the gun back in your waistband? A No, I didn't. Q Do you remember saying on audiotape, then I went to check out the first fellow who was talking to me. I didn't have the weapon. I mean, I had the weapon but in my waistband. You know, I put it back in my waistband. Do you remember saying that on videotape? A The last time I looked at him, yes. I believe I put it in my waistband before I went over to that person the last time, yes. Q So, in fact, after you shot Mr. Cabey, you put the gun back in your waistband as you went to check on Troy Canty; is that correct? A That would be at the very end. That's after -- that happened -- I put the gun in my waistband after trying to shoot Darrell the second time. Q When you went over to check Troy Canty, your purpose was not to see if Troy Canty was all right; is that correct? A Yes, I wanted to see if he was disabled. Q You wanted to make sure he was hurt, not make sure he was okay? A That's correct. Q So when you used the term on video, check on him -- is that right? A Yes, that's correct. Q You checked on him; is that correct? A That's correct. Q And then you checked on the fellow who you believe to be Barry Allen? A Well, I didn't check. Well, I quickly scanned those two. Q Is it fair to say that the only thing Darrell Cabey had ever done to you was to be part of that group of four young people? A I believe he was the one who may have -- Q Excuse me, Mr. Goetz. Is it fair to say that the only thing, to the best of your recollection, Darrell Cabey did was to be one of the group? A No. Q Is it correct your attention-- Mr. Hoffman, page 60. Judge, page 60. Do you recall being asked this question and giving this answer in the 1990 deposition: "QUESTION: What specifically, to the best of your recollection, did Darrell Cabey do? "ANSWER: He was one of the group." A That's correct. Q And you said that under oath at that time; is that right? A That's correct. Q Now when you went back to Darrell Cabey, you didn't know at that time whether he had been shot or not; did you? A That's correct. Q In fact, you thought you had shot him, but you weren't sure; is that correct? A I thought I may have winged him or something. Q What was the term? A Winged him. I didn't think he was seriously injured. Q He didn't have the same look of horror, of harm, of pain in his eyes that the other three did; is that fair to say? A His eyes were wide open. The other three were -- he was moving around, like trying to get out of his seat or something. So he didn't appear seriously injured, and he actually did quite the wrong thing if there is a shooting going on. Q Mr. Goetz -- THE COURT: Mr. Goetz, please just answer the question. THE WITNESS: Okay. Q And when you approached Mr. Cabey, you made up your mind that you were going to pull the trigger anyway; didn't you? A At the time I saw him moving around and stuff, yes. Q Mr. Goetz, at the time you approached Darrell Cabey, you made up your mind you were going to pull the trigger anyway; isn't that right? A You can't predict the future, but I probably would have pulled the trigger anyway. If he wasn't seriously injured I was going to shoot him, yes. Subway trial bronx transcript .tiff 981.2kB

2603:7000:4EF0:9B0:A8C0:9883:81AE:84E9 (talk) 18:08, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

Hi! I've hatted this just to make this discussion easier. To be clear: the current version of the article already notes the Cabey fourth/fifth shot issue. See the trial section, last paragraph.

I know you've repeatedly brought up that you think the campaign website passage should be included here, but you're currently the only editor who supports that inclusion, and two editors oppose it. If you'd like to reach out to the broader community, you can do so via an appropriate form of dispute resolution, but it's not really productive to just repeatedly leave comments expressing your frustration at its absence.--Jerome Frank Disciple 18:18, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

Totally disagree on this. It doesn't matter if several editors agree if none give a good explanation for their decision. No source can provide an unequivocal or unquestioned source that will satisfy all. The article provides many important details but doesn't decisively explain how the shooting occurred, no problem, but probably and presumably Goetzknows more about the shooting than anyone else, and his highly detailed description 20 years later would probably be of interest to many readers, and readers should not be denied this significant source. (For example, hypothetically would Bill Hickok's highly detailed description of the shooting at the OK Corral 20 years later not be included in a Wiki article on the OK Corral shooting?). Instead we have a section you added about Goetz's Defamation Claims ... an irrelevant forgotten items ... how can you justify this? 2603:7000:4EF0:9B0:7CD1:5EC:AEF1:4BAC (talk) 01:15, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

You should try re-reading my post, especially the first part of the second sentence.--Jerome Frank Disciple 01:23, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

I did, yes its an importance sentence which significantly clarifies events. But like many truth seeking processes it establishes what did not happen. Goetz's detailed explanation from his website (credible or not) goes a long way to explaining what did happen. Its a significant source that should not be denied to readers. 2603:7000:4EF0:9B0:8D9D:BBBE:25CF:E17F (talk) 13:07, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Oh my fault: I meant second sentence of the second paragraph :)--Jerome Frank Disciple 13:21, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

I don't know what you mean by: second sentence of the second paragraph. Can you post here 3 or 4 consecutive words of the sentence you are referring to? 2603:7000:4EF0:9B0:8DA9:6A78:72F8:7ECF (talk) 23:15, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

"If you'd like to reach out to the broader community, you can do so via an appropriate form of dispute resolution". Right now, you're the only editor who is advocating for inclusion. I can't speak for the other editors who have opposed inclusion, but my concerns are, in no particular order: WP:PRIMARY, WP:WEIGHT, WP:ASPECT, and a bit of WP:SUMMARY. You're really just restating the argument that you think it's important, but, as I and F4U have said multiple times, we come out the other way on the issue. So if you'd like to, use WP:DR, but otherwise I don't think your posts are going to result in a change to the article.--Jerome Frank Disciple 23:22, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Will reply in several days. Am very busy right now. 2603:7000:4EF0:9B0:70D2:4D79:37F8:3051 (talk) 11:32, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

Also the link to the Shatner interview where Goetz demonstrates his shooting technique would be of interest to many readers. 2603:7000:4EF0:9B0:7CD1:5EC:AEF1:4BAC (talk) 01:19, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

As a reader, I would not appreciate further details of people being shot or even shooting techniques, especially from Goetz himself, on a site available to people of all age groups and mental states and without a clear reason to include this information. 2A01:C22:AC47:4B00:D433:2EB8:7A9D:8647 (talk) 17:13, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

New attention

@Jerome Frank Disciple There's been some new attention on this case after the Jordan Neely homicide and I think you may want to incorporate these sources into the article: [1], [2], and [3]. On first glance to me, they appear to have a few bits of information not currently in the article. :3 F4U (they/it) 20:15, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

Homicide? Hardly. But you're right. The cases are similar. Neely is also a criminal a scumbag and Daniel Penny and Gaetz are both heroes. 2601:603:5382:4DA0:78E4:FD19:B08C:760E (talk) 00:54, 25 January 2025 (UTC)

Inflation adjustment

I added an inflation adjustment to the amount that the perpetrator requested, as the relative value - nearly three times higher - of the request is significantly different today from what it was nearly forty years ago. Editor Freedom4U reverted the addition, with the summary "There is absolutely no reason to add an inflation adjustment for five dollars - see talk page if you wish to discuss this further". An interesting opinion, but an opinion it is. I would counter that there is absolutely no reason not to add it. I see no harm nor disruption nor POV in adding it. cheers. anastrophe, an editor he is. 20:49, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

@Anastrophe I think its clear that the request was rhetorical (asking for a five dollar bill), rather than one asking for an exact sum of money. In addition, the CPI is most appropriate when comparing the value of goods (since its a measure of the increase of price of goods over time), it is inappropriate to be used to compare the value of money (as it is not a measure of the increase in wages). :3 F4U (they/it) 21:01, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

(tl;dr I agree) I'm unclear how the request was "rhetorical" - he asked for five dollars. Whether he meant it in a 'generic' way, such as 'give me your money' or a specific amount seems immaterial. I disagree that the inflation of currency is inappropriate to the request that was made, as requests tend to be made based upon their percieved value. For example, in 1984, 716,800,000 five dollar bills were printed, 1,292,800,000 twenty dollar bills were printed. Because the relative value of the dollar is much lower today, in 2022 525,456,000 five dollar bills were printed, while 1,711,136,000, reflecting the lower use of the lower value currency. Perhaps it falls into the realm of trivia, I am open to that. And the longer I sit here writing this, the more I'm coming around to your way of thinking, lol! Okay - I guess it's a fair assessment. The perp was "asking" for money, as a "polite" way of advising Goetz that he was being robbed. Works for me. cheers. anastrophe, an editor he is. 21:11, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

Glad we could work this out! :3 F4U (they/it) 21:31, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

Change to intro

Hello, my Wikipedia name is ChangerOfPages. I changed this page because the intro seemed inaccurate. It described the targets of the shooting as "young... teenagers" when they were 18 and 19. This seems inaccurate. If 18 & 19 are young teenagers, then what are 13 & 14? That's why I removed the word "young". ChangerOfPage (talk) 10:04, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Wiki articles should not be used as sources for this Wiki article

Source 41 (only a partially accurate Wiki article) is used as a source. The actual court decision People v. Goetz should be used instead (https://www.nycourts.gov/reporter/archives/p_goetz.htm). 2603:7000:4DF0:9340:54E8:AD37:3A8B:4154 (talk) 11:42, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

That source is referring to the court decision, not the Wiki article. ~ F4U (talk • they/it) 14:45, 28 August 2024 (UTC)